You can be more specific, without specificity all I can say is that most westerners’ view of excess mortality in the Soviet Union comes from the Black Book of Communism,notoriously debunked “historical” book that included the following as “deaths due to Communism:”
Nazis killed during World War II
People the Nazis killed
Non-births as deaths (such as increased access to contraceptives)
Made-up numbers to get to the “100 million” figure everyone has heard of
Came out before the release of the Soviet Archives
Several of its own writers came out and denounced the book for being essentially mythology
No Marxist asserts that there were no excess deaths in Socialist states, that would certainly be off-base. However, us Marxists do affirm that historical record overwhelmingly favors the notion that the real historical totals are heavily distorted quantitatively and qualitatively in western media and education.
If you want to be specific, we can go further into detail, if you’d like.
Even the Wikipedia article opens up, affirming what I just said:
Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to the Soviet revolutionary and dictator Joseph Stalin vary widely.[1] The scholarly consensus affirms that archival materials declassified in 1991 contain irrefutable data far superior to sources used prior to 1991, such as statements from emigres and other informants.
Even further, it attributes starvations in gulags occuring during World War II when the Nazis invaded Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket, to the USSR rather than Nazi Germany. It also includes all executions as “excess deaths,” presumably implying any execution is unjustified, even those of fascists and the members of the White Army that had committed crimes against humanity.
The article even says the 20 million number commonly reported is bogus, and the actual number of deliberate deaths is less than 5% of that, and among those deliberate deaths were legitimate executions of murderers, rapists, anti-semites, and war criminals.
This does mean that there were certainly excesses, but at the same time, you’ve gone straight to a non-scholarly source influenced heavily by the US government, who has been known to lie about the very subject, or try to obfuscate the real character of events.
Before the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the archival revelations, some historians estimated that the numbers killed by Stalin’s regime were 20 million or higher.[5][6][7] After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives was declassified and researchers were allowed to study it. This contained official records of 799,455 executions (1921–1953),[8][9][10][11][12] around 1.5 to 1.7 million deaths in the Gulag,[13][14][15] some 390,000[16] deaths during the dekulakization forced resettlement, and up to 400,000 deaths of persons deported during the 1940s,[17] with a total of about 3.3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[18] According to historian Stephen Wheatcroft, approximately 1 million of these deaths were “purposive” while the rest happened through neglect and irresponsibility.
I literally referenced that paragraph, and explained. The vast majority of gulag deaths, included in that 1.5-1.7 million estimate, were starvations during World War II. The executions? The large majority were, again, rapists, murderers, fascists, war criminals, and members of the White Army.
The total deliberate killings of innocents? Entirely left obscure. Any execution is marked as “excess,” including the criminals I listed, starvations during World War II are “excess” rather than listed as deliberate murders from the Nazis.
I even said there were excess deaths, my point (that you’re proving, no less) is that real facts are quantitatively and qualitatively obfuscated to push a narrative.
Would you mind telling me what point you think I’m making?
I just want to know if those excess deaths are part of the Marxist ideology or not. You say the USSR was a country following Marxist theory. At least 7 million people died either because they were killed by the state or died through negligence. Are all those deaths explained away by “The war caused their deaths” and “They deserved it anyways”? Were a significant number of them killed despite the USSR being marxist or because of it?
If we apply the same measure to capitalism then we can get hundreds of millions of deaths
Churchill himself is responsible for various deliberately engineered famines and genocides.
And you’re really here crying over some assholes who got executed? Do capitalist countries not execute people? Wanna also talk about all the innocent people CIA killed to defend capitalism?
You’re just arguing in bad faith, regurgitating the same garbage we’ve heard a million times before
How do millions of deaths under Stalin factor into that?
You can be more specific, without specificity all I can say is that most westerners’ view of excess mortality in the Soviet Union comes from the Black Book of Communism, notoriously debunked “historical” book that included the following as “deaths due to Communism:”
No Marxist asserts that there were no excess deaths in Socialist states, that would certainly be off-base. However, us Marxists do affirm that historical record overwhelmingly favors the notion that the real historical totals are heavily distorted quantitatively and qualitatively in western media and education.
If you want to be specific, we can go further into detail, if you’d like.
I just opened Wikipedia. There is a whole article about the excess mortality under Stalin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
Even the Wikipedia article opens up, affirming what I just said:
Even further, it attributes starvations in gulags occuring during World War II when the Nazis invaded Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket, to the USSR rather than Nazi Germany. It also includes all executions as “excess deaths,” presumably implying any execution is unjustified, even those of fascists and the members of the White Army that had committed crimes against humanity.
The article even says the 20 million number commonly reported is bogus, and the actual number of deliberate deaths is less than 5% of that, and among those deliberate deaths were legitimate executions of murderers, rapists, anti-semites, and war criminals.
This does mean that there were certainly excesses, but at the same time, you’ve gone straight to a non-scholarly source influenced heavily by the US government, who has been known to lie about the very subject, or try to obfuscate the real character of events.
The very next paragraph read as follows:
You can’t blame all the deaths on Nazis.
I literally referenced that paragraph, and explained. The vast majority of gulag deaths, included in that 1.5-1.7 million estimate, were starvations during World War II. The executions? The large majority were, again, rapists, murderers, fascists, war criminals, and members of the White Army.
The total deliberate killings of innocents? Entirely left obscure. Any execution is marked as “excess,” including the criminals I listed, starvations during World War II are “excess” rather than listed as deliberate murders from the Nazis.
I even said there were excess deaths, my point (that you’re proving, no less) is that real facts are quantitatively and qualitatively obfuscated to push a narrative.
Would you mind telling me what point you think I’m making?
I just want to know if those excess deaths are part of the Marxist ideology or not. You say the USSR was a country following Marxist theory. At least 7 million people died either because they were killed by the state or died through negligence. Are all those deaths explained away by “The war caused their deaths” and “They deserved it anyways”? Were a significant number of them killed despite the USSR being marxist or because of it?
If we apply the same measure to capitalism then we can get hundreds of millions of deaths
Churchill himself is responsible for various deliberately engineered famines and genocides.
And you’re really here crying over some assholes who got executed? Do capitalist countries not execute people? Wanna also talk about all the innocent people CIA killed to defend capitalism?
You’re just arguing in bad faith, regurgitating the same garbage we’ve heard a million times before