This has been the least worthwhile discussion I’ve had in a long time, and I discuss with people I disagree with fairly often (including those who support Israel). Most of them manage to change my view somewhat, or at least provide a new perspective. You didn’t, sadly.
(However I very much appreciate you wanting to discuss, even though the discussion quality could be improved significantly)
Bro read my comments, the factual evidence is there right in front of you. If you refuse to click the links I provide and read my arguments, that’s on you.
And yes, I do not trust Israeli leaders words, I only trust their actions. You cannot convince me to trust their words by saying that I should. Factual evidence (social media bots, fake hamas websites, other lies, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Gaza_war, etc) strongly support the claim that Israel utilities lies and deception frequently, and I thus do not consider them trustworthy.
Facts don’t care about your feelings or blind beliefs.
That Israel has the firepower to completely obliterate Gaza in two days does not mean that anything less than that is fine.
Again zero factual arguments to support your/their claims. You have just chosen to blindly believe, it seems.
I will try to acknowledge your arguments. From my understanding, your main point is the following:
Israel is trying to eliminate Hamas and nothing else. Because Hamas is very dangerous and evil, the actions of the IDF in Gaza is justified. Is that a reasonable summary?
I disagree on many parts of that argument, as you know.
Now, why do we disagree?
It seems to me that intent matters much to you. I believe this might be where our views differ the most. I realize that assuming that Israel is acting in good faith was a flaw in my argumentation, as I do not at all believe that. I will not try to argue under that assumption any more.
Let’s purely look at intent. Again, here we have a very different views. You claim (correct me if I’m wrong): Israel has no intent of doing anything but changing the power structure in Gaza in order to get rid of evil forces. Israel treats evey innocent human with the samr repsect and decency. Israel intends to let Gazans keep living in Gaza and has no plan of taking over Gaza. Israel has every intent to let Gazan infrastructure, homes, and buildings be undamaged as far as possible. Israel wants to make life as good as possible for Gazans, and has no intention to make it unneccsary difficult. Israel does not want the population of Gaza to be displaced to another country. Israel would avoid killing innocent Arabs to the same extent as they would avoid killing innocent Jews. So far correct?
I claim the exact opposite, more or less. I believe that the evidence of what is happening in Gaza strongly indicates that I am correct.
To convince me that Israel is acting in good faith, you have to provide arguments for that. A statement from Israel is not an argument at all.
I hope I haven’t misrepresented your standpoints too much.
You seem to repeat the same argument over and over. I believe you know you’re wrong. Israel can try to achieve this goal without making an entire area hell on earth for 2 million people. You know this. Amnesty international knows this. The UN knows this. The ICJ knows this.
Also, I want to point out a fundamental difference in our arguments.
You say:
Hamas wants to commit Genocide against the jewish people. This gives Israel the right to do whatever it takes to “take out Hamas” (whatever that means?), with however much collateral damage they want.
I say: Israel is commiting genocide against the Palestinian People. Nothing more. I do not, at all, see this as a reason for Hamas to wipe out the entirety of IDF killing however many innocent Israelis it takes. Do you understand? The many crimes of the IDF (which are facts, look up Israeli war crimes if you do not believe me) does not warrant the killing and starvation of Israeli children in the thousands.
Nor does the crimes of Hamas warrant the killing and starvation of Arab children in the thousands. Obviously.
Also, if a large amount of “genocidal acts” doesn’t amount to genocide, then what does? Is Israel allowed to commit the most horrendous crimes as long as it is in “good faith”?
I am probably just as steadfast as you, but I try to understand the views of the opposite side. You seem to do that too, given that you’re discussing with me. That is appreciated.
To answer your question: Yes it is still obviously genocide even if it is in retaliation. There are many legitimate ways of retaliating against a militant group - starving an entire population is not one of them. Israel could be conducting this war in a very different way.
Then why don’t they conduct the war in a very different way? Because they want to get rid of Gaza’s population, I say. See this, for example (although just reports for now): https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-reportedly-developing-plan-to-resettle-1-million-gazans-in-libya/ which also points towards the US complicity in the genocide. 1 million Gazans aren’t Hamas fighters. 1 million Gazans are just arabs/muslims, and that’s apparantly enough reason to force them from their homeland?
I see that this is the common point of view for people who sympathise with Israel. I strongly disagree with you but appreciate you wanting to discuss it.
It seems you belive you have to be convinced of to things in order to change your view: A. Genocidal acts are being commited. B. The genocidal acts are being commited with genocidal intent.
A: That genocidal acts are being committed is a fact. Carefully read through the wikipedia article above (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide) if you’re not convinced. Do it. Read the article.
B: You seem to focus on this. i.e that the actions taken by IDF are only powered by a will to protect the security of Israel, and that there is no intent of genocide. I don’t necessarily agree, but let’s say you’re right: Israel only does what it does out of security concerns. This does not warrant the genocidal actions commited. You can’t, out of security concerns, kill 10,000 children. This should be obvious.
Please reconsider your views.
Grave of the fireflies. I’ve only watched it once but out of all movies i’ve ever watched, it’s the one that made me the most emotional. Incredibly powerful.
How the US is enabling it: Sending money, weapons, intellegence etc to the Israeli military. The US is actively enabling the operations of the IDF, this is obvious and I do not think that anyone claims anything different. The US denies that a genocide is being commited, but they do not deny that they greatly help the IDF.
Why the operations of the IDF is considered genocide: See: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-special-committee-press-release-19nov24/ or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
Side note regarding sources and integrity of information: Do you believe that Israel is mounting a large intentional disinformation/propaganda campaign towards western countries? Or do you not believe any such thing? And do you live in the US?
Talk with people! Discuss it with your friends! Be aware that they might have a very different outlook on this, so be patient with people. Here is a list of things to do when discussing this with people supporting Israel:
Example of Israeli disinformation: They created a fake hamas website (hamas dotttt com) whereas the real website was taken down from all of internet (hamas dottt ps). The fake one was heavily promoted by Israel’s official twitter acc and several Israeli government officials on twitter and recieved heavy traffic during Oct 2023-end of 2024. Use the wayback machine or similar for this, I believe both sites are down now.
There has also been many, many other lies by the Israeli government. Find proved examples and show.
I take it you do not believe Israel is commiting genocide? Or are you genuinely asking in which way the USA is enabling this?
I like this one: https://fireborn.mataroa.blog/rss/
It’s a blind guy writing about accesibilty in OSS software. It’s very interesting and well written.